Thanks for listening to The Fat Psychologist Podcast. Join me to decode wellbeing research so it can have a real impact in our lives. Let's make decisions based on information we understand, not based what others say we should think of ourselves. I will explore themes that have been important in my life, as I search for happiness and belonging. This is our journey, I would love you to contribute too!

The Fat Psychologist Podcast

Revolutionary Hotness: Reclaiming pleasure with Erica Sosa

"Pleasure is going to be my ultimate beacon in this life." – Erica Sosa

Season 1 Episode 8

In this episode

In this episode of the Fat Psychologist Podcast, host Ninna Makrinov is joined by guest Erica Sosa to discuss body positivity and the impact of societal stigma on mental health. They delve into topics such as desirability politics, the harmful effects of diet culture, and the importance of embracing pleasure at any size. Erica shares her experiences as a fat femme advocating for body inclusivity and challenges the stigmatization of fat bodies. The discussion is backed by research linking stigma to psychological distress, particularly depression. Ninna emphasizes the importance of self-acceptance and making informed decisions about one's body. Listeners are encouraged to interact and share their thoughts on social media.

Guests

Erica Sosa believes in a world where fat femmes have the right to access pleasure and revel in their own brand of sexy. A world where the body is not a stand in for a moral judgment but a vessel to experience all life has to offer. In between her work as a bridal stylist and a paralegal, she writes on her Substack "Revolutionary Hotness" about fat femmes, erotic autonomy, and desirability politics.

Find Erica on Instagram and Threads @ericasosaofficial

Ninna Makrinov, aka The Fat Psychologist, is a teacher, trainer, coach and the author of The Fat Psychologist Podcast. A critical thinker by nature, Ninna is an activist who questions knowledge from a feminist, fat inclusive, disability informed, anti-racist perspective. By day, Ninna works as Assistant Professor (Research Methods) at the University of Warwick and Chair of Governors in two Birmingham Primary Schools. She has been an academic in Chile, Mexico and the UK. Ninna is passionate about the development and well-being of people and the organisations they are part of.

Ninna is a Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy. She holds a BSc Psychology and Professional Title in Organisational Psychology from Pontificia Universidad Católica de Chile, an MSc in Occupational Health Psychology from The University of Nottingham and a Masters in Business Administration from Tecnológico de Monterrey. She has most recently completed the Postgraduate Award (PGA) Curriculum Design in Higher Education and the PGA Technology Enhanced Learning at The University of Warwick.

In this episode, we talked about:

Film
Fat Girlz (2006) - starring Mo'Nique

Academic article
Aisling T. O'Donnell and Aoife-Marie Foran.(2024). The link between anticipated and internalized stigma and depression: A systematic review. Social Science & Medicine, 349, 116869. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.socscimed.2024.116869.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Introduction

---

[00:00:05] Hello, my name is Ninna Makrinov. I'm a psychologist, and yes, I am fat. I am the fat psychologist. I love who I am. In fact, I want you to embrace who you are.

[00:00:17] Fat or skinny, gay or straight white, black or brown, funny or boring, whatever. Just be you saying this sounds easy. Doing it is hard.

[00:00:29] So welcome to the Fat Psychologist Podcast. Join me to decode wellbeing research so it can have a real impact on our lives. Let's make decisions based on information we understand, not based on what others say we should think of ourselves. In this series, I explore happiness at every size.

[00:00:47] Inclusivity is at the heart of everything I do. I capture every word with care. You will find precise transcripts on my website and human checked [00:01:00] captions wherever you listen.

[00:01:02] I am doing a little bit of a double episode this time. On my previous episode, I met Erica. Erica Sosa was so amazing that I had to do two episodes. So rather than having my normal intro, I am just going to give us a little bit of a recap from the last episode instead. Let's first hear a little bit about Erica.

[00:01:26] I write a newsletter on Substack called Revolutionary Hotness. The name was kind of given to me by a friend. She said that I embody a revolutionary hotness by just, you know, being myself and being on the internet out loud as a fat femme and advocating for other fat femmes to be themselves out loud.

[00:01:45] So you can see why I loved Erica so much. Most definitely. Let's embody who we are and find our hotness. Let's hear a bit more.

[00:01:58] I've been examining the idea [00:02:00] of desirability politics and erotic autonomy for fat femmes for often we're relegated to this position of we should just be grateful that anybody finds us hot. When that's such a, it's, uh, oh. It's such a tool of the patriarchy and the male gaze that it, it's annoying, for lack of a better word.

[00:02:23] I also work as a bridal stylist, so that is my part-time job. And I hear the comments a lot of, oh my, the thing now is like, my back is just big. And I'm like, you know, it's the dress.

[00:02:35] We agreed, completely annoying.

[00:02:38] On the last episode, we talked about how annoyed we were about not being seen or being seen as deficient because of what we look like. We also talked about how being fat openly and loudly is political. And we discussed how diet culture [00:03:00] permeates so many of the things we do, so many of the places we are around. We questioned who gains from us being small.

[00:03:10] In this episode, Erica and I are going further. I have borrowed the title for the episode from Erica's Substack because I loved the name Revolutionary Hotness. There are so many people out there demonstrating that diversity is what makes us amazing as humans. I am in awe of all people who are showing up to challenge ideas that need to be challenged. In this podcast, I focus particularly on weight and how that relates to happiness. However, I am really interested in all of your stories, so it is at every size.

[00:03:56] Today, Erica and I will think about [00:04:00] what does it mean to be hot, to be desirable, to be seen in a fat body.

[00:04:08] Let us know your thoughts and interact with us on Instagram and threads. Erica and I are on both of those platforms. Please follow, like, and rate the podcast so others can find our stories.

[00:04:24] It's the Fat Psychologist Podcast, but this season's called happiness at every size. What makes you happy?

[00:04:29] A lot of things. So even though I complain about being a bridal stylist a lot and navigating weight loss conversations, I really do love being a bridal stylist and, finding the gown, the accessory, the looks that make women light up, brides light up.

[00:04:48] I really love a good grilled cheese. Like I've been perfecting the perfect grilled cheese. And I'll do this sometimes with different foods. I'm like, I am so close to the perfect baked french [00:05:00] toast. I can taste it. And I really love pole dancing, but I love movement in any way I can access it. Even the gym with those gym bros, I'm like, yeah, I really just wanna do like 120 pounds of leg presses today.

[00:05:14] I know because there's research that shows that this is the case. They will see me as a fat person and then class me in a specific way... when all of us, fat people, thin people, we are really complex beings and we have loads of things we enjoy, some of which will be very different to what people think that we should be enjoying or, or must be enjoying or maybe not enjoying at all.

[00:05:37] Because again, portrayals of fat people in the media are very much these sad people who just have nothing. In many cases, not always, thankfully there are other portrayals, common way.

[00:05:46] And I actually... the things that you enjoy doing or I enjoy doing can be very different.

[00:05:52] There's nothing that will class us.

[00:05:53] Yeah. I love going to the beach like any thin person. I hate driving like any person [00:06:00] in the United States, so have a like more in common than people wanna prescribe us to, but because our bodies are so easily defined. People think, okay, you just like eating, which yes, everybody should like eating, let's start there. But, you just like to eat and sit around. But you know, number one, everybody should like to eat again. And two, who doesn't sit around and watch like hours of whatever Netflix show .

[00:06:29] Visibility: is it brave?

---

[00:06:29] On In Praise of Fat Vanity, you started saying, "The first time I wore a bikini to the beach, I was stopped on the pier by a tall, lanky blonde woman wearing a bright paisley covered bikini. You're so brave. She cooed." How did that make you feel? What did you think?

[00:06:46] I just remember being so shocked. So shocked. So paisley. If anybody doesn't know if anybody's outside the Southern United States, paisley is a pattern worn by a specific white [00:07:00] woman. And it's very swirly and bright and it's very peak Charleston. So I kind of already knew what the vibe was from her, but for someone to out loud say, you're so brave for wearing a piece of clothing to this beach. It's hot, everybody's sweating, everybody's like drinking their water, and we all know we're gonna get a sunburn no matter how much sunscreen we're gonna apply. The act of showing my stomach and my thighs and my arms and everything was the bravest thing that she's ever seen, it just took me aback. For someone to say that to a complete stranger and then later on I got mad of, she would never say this to a thin person. She would only say this to a fat person, and I know that because I was standing next to a thinner person who was also wearing a bikini.

[00:07:50] That resonated with me, cause there was a wedding in my family, so I went to the wedding with a normal gown. Like it was quite low cut because I like low cut [00:08:00] stuff. Most people in my family didn't say anything thankfully, 'cause they do have the approach of have you lost weight yet?

[00:08:05] But this other person came to me and was like, oh, you're so amazing and so brave 'cause you wear that dress. And I'm like, it is just a dress. Like, what should I wear? Should I be covered with a box? Like what's the expectation, you know? And it was a long gown. Like it didn't have anything... I think that constant expectation from others that as a fat person, anything that's tight and shows my curves is inappropriate, but like, what do you wear then? Like SpongeBob square pants kind of dress or what?

[00:08:37] It is also interesting that you say like, oh, should I wear a box? Should I be covered? Because. We're expected to be covered and kind of modest, but also we're not allowed to look frumpy. So right now I'm wearing a kind of oversized t-shirt and shorts, and if I went outside like this, I would be considered frumpy.

[00:08:59] [00:09:00] But if someone who wore an oversized shirt and biker shorts, and a smaller body were wearing this, people would be like fashion, high fashion.

[00:09:10] um, yeah. complex isn't it. And it's also very much culturally uh...

[00:09:14] I discovered this by watching a movie before I made all these African born friends rather than black Africans in the UK, which is in terms of life experience, and how they see the world.

[00:09:25] But, um, black Africans born in Africa... and they go like, oh, but It's a good thing.

[00:09:30] I remember watching I don't know if you've seen it. It's an American movie, called Fat Girlz. I thought funny. She works in a department store, she wants to be a fashion designer, but obviously 'cause she's fat, it's not something she can go to. Then she goes to a hotel and she meets this Nigerian doctor who kind of falls head over heels for her . And she doesn't believe it because how could he, because she's fat.

[00:09:53] I can relate a lot to that, to the idea that before I would've believed that to be loved, I needed to be [00:10:00] different. So then being who I am, I didn't deserve passion or sexiness because big bodies are not sexy, and that's so not true as well. There are some people who don't like fat bodies, but there are people who don't like thin bodies.

[00:10:13] yeah,

[00:10:14] Yeah.

[00:10:14] Now that you said the description of the movie, I'm like, oh, wait. Yes, I do remember that Monique movie. It was in the two thousands, which, I do remember watching that in theaters, actually. I haven't seen it again. It was treated as almost fantasy of this very attractive, muscular Nigeria man, loving this fat woman unapologetically and kind of out loud. And it's a comedy movie, but I think a lot of people went into the movie with the premise of, oh, somebody falling in love with this woman is gonna be the funny part when that's not the funny part. The absurdity of how she's treated simply because of her body. It is kind of funny, but you, it's a lot of, also a lot of obstacles for this woman to have to [00:11:00] overcome. For something that should be more attainable to her. Like Monique, if you looked at her back in the day, you're like, oh, wait a minute. Everybody treated her like ugly when she wasn't. She was just a larger woman in the time of the two thousands, which I don't know if y'all had American Next Top model over there in the two thousands and like I've been watching a lot of two thousands TV again, and I'm just looking at the bodies like, oh my gosh. Some of these bodies that were called plus size or fat were just not a size two.

[00:11:33] I'm taken by when you say it was considered fantasy, which is I think how I would've thought it too.

[00:11:40] Claim our body's power: take up space

---

[00:11:40] Something else from your Revolutionary Hotness Substack. So from the very recent post on Let's Talk Resolutions and the Body: "for the world I want to see there is an urge for more fat femmes to stand in the power, with the knowledge their erotic autonomy is an exercise in said power, they [00:12:00] use it to serve as a vocal declaration that they have removed themselves as an unwitting participant in diet culture".

[00:12:06] I did have a moment where you were reading that and I was like, damn, who wrote that? And it was me.

[00:12:11] It was it's good.

[00:12:14] but that is what I wanna see more of is more fat femmes taking up space.

[00:12:21] There is a fantastic boudoir photographer that I follow on Instagram, Threads. All she does is photograph fat femmes in lingerie in these like very sexy scenes that seem to be only reserved for more quote unquote ideal body types.

[00:12:40] And I'm looking at them like, oh, this is what I wanna see more of more larger bodies like this. Taking out space, owning their power, showing the world that I am unapologetically sexy in this little bitty piece of clothing. And nobody else is gonna tell me any differently. I wanna see more larger [00:13:00] bodies dancing, more larger bodies in porn, like, you know, just to keep it real.

[00:13:05] Like I wanna see more representation of us.

[00:13:07] One of the things that when I started following you, I liked is that that's exactly what you're doing. So I don't think I would do that just because I still, not for the fat culture, I don't think.

[00:13:20] I show my body if I go to the swimming pool... but you are willing to take that space and I think there's value in people doing that and owning any person, however their body,

[00:13:31] It could be people with disabilities, are being seen because there's so many people that have been hidden for so long.

[00:13:37] Trolls, bravery and boundaries

---

[00:13:37] And I think... I was going to say it's brave, but then our conversation before about what's brave and what's not brave, but it is brave in a way because the world's not prepared for that. And about that as well, In "so what if I'm glorifying obesity", you say: "Anytime I decide to show up on the internet pole dancing, wearing outfits , talking about my makeup or revealing in a bikini, I automatically brace myself just in case a troll [00:14:00] decides to make an appearance." And in that sense, it is brave because there's so many people out there that are willing to go and destroy others.

[00:14:10] Although I am being super lucky on the internet, like just lucky. I don't know. So, not brave because that's just normal behavior. It's okay. However brave, because there will be potentially people lashing out.

[00:14:27] That makes total sense. There is a lot of vulnerability, like you were mentioning, not just in fatness, but in disabled spaces, in non-binary gender fluid spaces to just show up and be unapologetically yourself. But at the same time, I am not brave for going to the beach in a bikini. So it really just depends on what circumstances you're talking about, but it takes so much strength and vulnerability to know that there are gonna be people who are gonna be shitty [00:15:00] and they're gonna criticize you for showing up, for showing so much skin, whatever complaint they have of the day, and showing up and showing others it's okay to show up regardless of that.

[00:15:14] Yeah. And I think when speaking about the issues as well, so it's about knowing that, I mean, hopefully everyone keeps being lovely, but it's not my job to please people with what I need to say it's important in me, my personal process of people pleasing and just being me. I suppose.

[00:15:35] And it's so freeing. It is so freeing.

[00:15:38] We need to free ourselves

---

[00:15:38] You are so right and what you're saying reminds me of an academic article I was reading: The Link Between Anticipated and Internalized Stigma and Depression a Systematic Review, which was just published in 2024. The authors, Aisling O'Donnell and Aoife-Marie Foran look at the evidence on the [00:16:00] relationship between being stigmatized and suffering depression. And I think this is a really important study because maybe when we tell our stories, people are thinking no that's just you.

[00:16:11] I love qualitative research and I love storytelling. I also like my numbers, and in this study in particular, they have clearly demonstrated that there is a link. So let me start by reading a piece from this because it's so well written. I am editing as I read.

[00:16:30] Aisling and Aoife-Marie say: "Stigmatized groups often experience psychological distress such as depression or anxiety. This has been demonstrated in relation to both visible and concealable stigmas. Visible stigma includes race, weight, and skin conditions. For example, I would add. Concealable stigma includes mental illness and minority sexual identities. I would say among others. Some [00:17:00] conditions may or may not be visible, such as certain chronic illnesses and eating disorders. The link between stigmatized groups and psychological distress may be due to the circumstances themselves, but stigma also appears to play a role. For instance, unemployment affects wellbeing through the stress experienced and lack of occupation. However, stigmatization of unemployment is also associated with psychological distress. Conversely, there are instances where the circumstance itself does not reliably lead to psychological distress. For example, accessing abortion, which is assumed to negatively affect women's wellbeing, lacks a consistent effect on feelings of psychological distress. However, abortion stigma is linked to poorer wellbeing."

[00:17:56] There's so much to unpack, I think I would do a whole episode [00:18:00] just on this article, but I'm not going to look at that.

[00:18:04] What they did then to test all of these things they're claiming, so that's a review of the literature, is that they conducted what we call a structured literature review.

[00:18:14] They looked at what has been published in the area. They define very specific characteristics they were looking at in terms of stigma, and they then looked at measurements of depression only. So quantitative high quality studies and they picked at the end 83 studies that had studied this relationship; 60 of those demonstrated direct relation between stigma and depression. Remember that when I say relationship, it doesn't mean what causes what. So potentially the fact that we are depressed makes us feel stigma. However, the evidence shows that the direction [00:19:00] is from stigma to depression. That's something we would need to test with other studies.

[00:19:06] From the other studies, 13 had this relationship, but we would need to be cautious with the results. Nine did not find this link, and only one showed the opposite direction. So that meant that higher stigma created lower depression.

[00:19:27] I was surprised with this article that although they mentioned race at the very beginning, they don't use it as one of the categories they looked at, and I'm super surprised about that 'cause I think it's very important that we talk about race, particularly in the West. I. However, let's focus on what they did find, and here today we're talking about weight.

[00:19:47] So I am going to focus on what they said about weight. Not many studies focus on weight as a stigma. So only eight of all of those did that. But what's really important [00:20:00] is that all of those, so a hundred percent of the studies found a relationship between stigma and depression. A hundred percent of studies showed that there's a relationship between stigma related to weight and depression.

[00:20:18] I'm just repeating this because it's so important. And most importantly, that relationship happened both for internalized stigma. This is when I believe in diet culture where I believe that I am not good enough because of my weight.

[00:20:35] And also one study looked at anticipated stigma. So if I thought I was going to be stigmatized, and when you're telling me this story, which is far too common of those sharing on social media, then being trolled... that worry of what others will do, how will I be [00:21:00] stigmatized, can have or does have an impact on our mental health.

[00:21:05] However, because a lot of the studies are done on internalized stigma. I think again, yes, it's so liberating to go, no, I challenge this. This is not what I want. This is not who I am. I do not believe this narrative, and there's plenty of evidence that we will continue to review as part of the podcast, but the stigma placed on weight and this relationship we are told with health is very, very questionable for me at least, i'm on that path of liberation, of letting go of my assumptions, and interestingly enough, although the discrimination still exists, finding others who I can discuss these issues, finding literature, listening to [00:22:00] activists has helped me, and I hope it helps our listeners too.

[00:22:04] I hope it helps us make decisions that are based on evidence and not on pressure. And yes. Another thing I wanna say is that to me it's very, very important that we do have autonomy in our bodies. So if your decision is to go on a weight loss diet, that's your body. I am just sharing the evidence of what I have found and where I stand.

[00:22:33] My stance is that weight loss diets cause more harm than they help in the long term. We will continue reviewing these issues as we go along.

[00:22:46] You deserve pleasure now

---

[00:22:46] So on that note. Erica, if you are thinking of our listeners, what would you, based on your lived experiences, on your lives and [00:23:00] dislikes, what would be your key messages?

[00:23:04] What I have embodied now and what I try to live by is pleasure is going to be my ultimate beacon in this life. And I seek out experiences, foods, clothing, just whatever I have to do through the day with pleasure as that ultimate goal. And I don't see my body as a deterrent. I see it as a way to maximise that pleasure. And I hope listeners also view pleasure as something that they deserve inherently, not when they're in a smaller body, not when they're a certain age, not when they've reached a certain career goal. You deserve it right now, and you should be able to access it in ways that you are able to access it.

[00:23:49] That that choice word pleasure is important because I immediately go Pleasure, but... but actually pleasure is great and pleasure is everything. It's like just [00:24:00] resting when we're tired is pleasurable.

[00:24:02] Pleasure is sitting in the sun. Pleasure is cuddling my dog. It is having great sex, um, being able to wear what I wanna wear, loving my children and it is swimming and it is loads of things. So I think that regaining pleasure as a right is really important ...for many of us.

[00:24:28] Outro

---

[00:24:28] So thank you. Thank you so much. Is there anything else you'd like to

[00:24:30] I feel like we can just go on for hours in different directions, just exploring pleasure. But I really don't have anything else to say. If the listeners like this topic, you know, you read from a couple of my Revolutionary Hotness S ubstack. Y'all can head over there. I'm not as regular as I like to be, but sometimes I'm on a roll I just talk about whatever.

[00:24:53] You can find me on Instagram and Threads. Erica Sosa, E-R-I-C-A-S-O-S-A [00:25:00] official,

[00:25:00] please keep in touch If there's anything you're doing you wanna share. It's been great talking to you. It's been really lovely. And, and, and thank you for your time, I do appreciate how much an hour of chatting with me means.

[00:25:14] So thank you so, so much.

[00:25:15] for having me. I hope you have a good rest of your day.

[00:25:18] Thanks for listening. I hope you've enjoyed our conversation as much as I did. If you like the podcast, please follow Erica and I on Instagram or Threads. I am also on Blue Sky and Facebook.

[00:25:31] You can also visit my website at thefatpsychologist.com where you can find a show note with transcriptions.

[00:25:39] I am actively looking for sponsors. If that's you, please get in touch. If you are a size inclusive brand and align with my values. Then I would like to hear from you, or if you know someone who might give me that shot, let me know that too. I really appreciate your support [00:26:00] as a startup, as a new person in this group, and actually, I'm so amazed, so huge thanks to all of the community who have kindly donated their time and offered to come on the podcast already.

[00:26:16] If you want to be a guest, contact me, and I would most definitely like to have you. If by any chance I get to a point when there's too many people who want to come in as guests, I will give priority to fat people, because of the podcast name and any person who is from marginalized groups. From then on, anyone super welcome. Actually, men are currently underrepresented, so if you're a man out there, you're super welcome to come. I hope all voices are heard on this podcast, not just mine, because we're building community together. We're getting to know each [00:27:00] other and through knowing each other, we can grow together rather than apart. We can dare to be ourselves and be loved fully and completely as we are.

[00:27:16] This episode was produced, recorded unedited by me, Ninna Makrinov. I am very thankful for the support of Manish Verma, who helped me get into this path and produced my first episode and the idea of this season.

Show Notes