The Fat Psychologist Podcast

Transcript

Introduction to The Fat Psychologist

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[00:00:05] Ninna (she/her): Hello. I am Ninna Makrinov. I'm a psychologist, and yes, I am fat. I am The Fat Psychologist. I love who I am. In fact, I want everyone to love who they are. Fat or skinny. Gay or straight, boring or funny. It just doesn't matter. Saying this can sound easy, but my experience it's not. That's where the podcast comes in. So then welcome to the Fat Psychologist Podcast. Join me to the code Wellbeing research so it can have a real impact in our lives.

In this series, I explore how we can be happy at any size. Inclusivity is really important to me, so every word is captured with care. You will find precise transcripts on my website and wherever you listen.

If you like my podcast, subscribe and share with friends. You can also find me on Blue Sky and Instagram at the Fat Psychologist.

Meet Catherine: A Fellow Psychologist

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[00:01:04] Ninna (she/her): Today am super excited to be joined by Catherine, who is also a psychologist. She'll tell us a bit about herself, I'm sure in a minute. And we will be thinking about representation in the media and how I suppose, we're both quite passionate about movies and shows can help us in this development process for happiness or hinder us, I suppose, as well. Catherine, would you like to start by introducing yourself?

[00:01:33] Catherine: Sure. Hi everyone. Happy to be here. So my name's Catherine. I'm a psychologist at my private practice, Geek Mental Wellbeing, which I founded in 2021. I live in Spain. I've been living in Spain for 10 years. I'm originally from London and I work mostly online now with people experiencing anxiety, depression, relationship issues, self-esteem, and I like to use a lot of pop culture in my work as a practicing geek myself. So I was really happy when Ninna asked me to collaborate on this about image in media. So that's something I use a lot in my sessions with clients.

[00:02:07] Ninna (she/her): Super. And for those who are listening to us rather than seeing us, could you describe yourself physically?

[00:02:16] Catherine: Uh, yeah, sure. I would definitely call myself a fat psychologist as well, although you've claimed the title and.

[00:02:21] Ninna (she/her): We could do it together and be the fat psychologists.

[00:02:24] Catherine: Yeah, why not? Yeah, I've been fat, oh, since childhood. Kind of been working on it in different ways. Some healthy, some less healthy. But I think, like you say, getting to a point where you're happy at any size is really the main goal.

[00:02:38] Ninna (she/her): That's great. Thanks for that.

Representation in Media: The Impact on Wellbeing

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[00:02:39] Ninna (she/her): You've just said that part of what you do in your practice is use popular media. How is that relevant to supporting people in their pathway to wellbeing? I don't wanna just say happiness 'cause I think we don't have to be happy all the time.

[00:02:56] Catherine: Yeah, absolutely. I think it really helps when we see ourselves in other people and when we don't always get that in our own upbringings, it really helps to look at the media that we're consuming, whether that's a TV show or a game series, and to see someone who has a character journey that represents ours, sometimes that is so much easier, especially for people who are neurodiverse, to say, I am like this character, rather than trying to find the words to explain their experience. And sometimes it can just be extremely validating to see somebody in a game where a trait that you both share maybe isn't the main feature of their journey and other character supports them with that.

[00:03:29] Ninna (she/her): That's actually really interesting and I, I do a lot of work with movies for teaching research methodology. Nothing to do with what I'm doing in the podcast, but I've also started thinking about representation and how

[00:03:41] Catherine: Hmm.

[00:03:42] Ninna (she/her): fat people are represented in

[00:03:44] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:45] Ninna (she/her): not. We're mostly not, and mostly when we are, it's not on the best approach. I know a lot of movies or scenarios where fat people are represented as really sad or lazy, total losers or the, or

[00:03:59] Catherine: Yeah.

[00:03:59] Ninna (she/her): the funny friend on the side, rather than being people in ourselves.

Or

[00:04:03] Catherine: it's just treated as a joke. Like I was rewatching friends a couple of years ago and the jokes about Monica being fat are, that is the whole joke. She was fat once upon a time. Okay. Why? Why is that funny?

[00:04:13] Ninna (she/her): Yeah. And also the other big joke in Friends that I hate is that whoever, they never show him, but the ugly guy in front.

[00:04:20] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Which they all

[00:04:21] Ninna (she/her): watch. I was like,

[00:04:22] Catherine: Oh yeah,

why are

[00:04:23] Ninna (she/her): bodies something to laugh at?

[00:04:26] Catherine: exactly.

[00:04:29] Ninna (she/her): Um, they're just bodies.

[00:04:31] Catherine: My fatness is the first thing you're going to notice when you look at me. But that doesn't mean that that's the thing that I want you to stay with when you come away from a conversation with me.

[00:04:38] Ninna (she/her): Yeah. I also say that, that's one of the first things they notice about me is that I'm fat. Of course, there's other things about me. So I'm white, I am middle aged, my hair is white...ish, I don't colour it too much, lately I had a bit of coloring to it. Have brown eyes. There's other things you see in me as well.

I think they're all important as part of the first view in terms of my identity that you see in me and I know that has a lot of privilege as well. Like for example, I'm white and then there's the discrimination that I get from the fat, which I know are also there in you're clearly going to be disorganized and lazy 'cause you're fat.

[00:05:16] Catherine: Oh yeah, I've definitely heard things like that.

Positive Representations and Personal Experiences

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[00:05:18] Ninna (she/her): In terms of positive representation, can you think of movies where you think, oh, fat people are represented accurately or positively or just as human, as normal people? Not the joke.

[00:05:29] Catherine: It's a good question, and I think it's come a lot more in recent years, but the first time I remember seeing a fat actor who wasn't just wearing a fat suit. But whose character had more than just the fat friend was in Gilmore Girls. The chef at the inn, Sookie, is played by Melissa McCarthy, who is a larger woman.

And what I loved about that show is that Sookie has a lot of storylines. She has a lot of flaws, and her fatness is never mentioned as any of them. Okay. The show does delve into some fat jokes throughout, but never at her. So not quite perfect. But I really like the representation of her as, oh, okay, You're allowed to be a fat person who can have a successful career, who can have friends.

At one point in the series, she gets engaged and she's there in her wedding dress. And the first thing her friend does when she looks at her is just go, oh my gosh, she's so beautiful. And I think that kind of representation is so important because this came out when I was a teenager and I was looking at that thinking, wow, is it possible that I could be fat and someone would love me?

[00:06:27] Ninna (she/her): Actually

[00:06:27] Catherine: you know, I've been married for two years, so that worked out.

[00:06:30] Ninna (she/her): Uh, no, and actually I was told a lot of times in my life by my family trying to help me lose weight. 'cause that was a good thing, that no one would ever love me. And that, that affected me a lot. And having these positive representations

[00:06:40] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:41] Ninna (she/her): can be really helpful. It's funny that you mentioned Melissa McCarthy 'cause recently, a couple months ago, we were watching a movie, of her, I think it was Spy, which I think is hilarious. So

[00:06:53] Catherine: Oh, we're not seeing that one.

[00:06:54] Ninna (she/her): again a positive representation of fatness. If you've not seen it, it's worth watching. I'm really bad at comedy, but that one was one I really enjoyed. And the

[00:07:01] Catherine: Oh, nice.

[00:07:02] Ninna (she/her): way she is seen in the world. So she wants to just be herself, so she´s a spy, when they give

[00:07:06] Catherine: Hmm.

[00:07:06] Ninna (she/her): her roles she's always like the divorcee, the cat lady... because of her body. And, and she's like, why, why, why?

She takes it in a really funny way and she develops her own character being different to this role she's being assigned and she's an amazing spy which is interesting.

But it was also funny that my partner was sitting with me and it's the first time we watch one of her movies together and I put her on and he's like, oh, she's so beautiful. And I'm like, okay. Like, it was really interesting because I never thought, and that shows my own bias and my own lack of understanding of the world, but I would've never thought of her as beautiful.

[00:07:49] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:50] Ninna (she/her): I think because I also have bias about fat people and I

[00:07:54] Catherine: But that's how we were raised. So like you say, culture and the shows we watched growing up, but like you said, the messages we got from family,

[00:08:00] Ninna (she/her): Absolutely.

[00:08:00] Catherine: Coming from my Peruvian family, definitely got those messages.

[00:08:03] Ninna (she/her): yeah, and it was really lovely. He said that because it never said that about any actor that I've ever heard ever before. And I'm like, okay, maybe he genuinely. Like, I know he thinks I'm beautiful, but I always found it a bit weird. So it was really great to see that it was just not me. He also thought someone else that looks like me in a way, was beautiful.

[00:08:25] Catherine: And that just reminded me of a conversation I had when I started my latest round of, body fitness coaching, which honestly has been a lot more about mindsets work rather than actually weight loss goals, which has been a lot healthier for me. I remember when I was starting to consider signing up for this service, I talked to my husband about it and asked his opinion, and his first thing he said to me was, well, if you do lose weight, I'm not gonna find you any less attractive.

I thought that's, I actually really loved that you said that.

[00:08:51] Ninna (she/her): Yeah, I think because at least for me, when culture was always telling me that I was unlovable

[00:08:58] Catherine: mm-hmm.

[00:08:59] Ninna (she/her): Having those reframings of me and my body is really important.

[00:09:05] Catherine: Yeah. And that it's not a, that is from my husband's case. It's not a I love you despite your size. It's a, I love you. Your size is part of what I am attracted to.

[00:09:13] Ninna (she/her): Yeah,

[00:09:14] Catherine: Your size is not the reason I love you. It's not something that affects how I feel towards you, but I still find you attractive right now.

[00:09:20] Ninna (she/her): Yeah. That's nice. Yeah. It's,

[00:09:23] Catherine: ah, he's great. I love my lot.

[00:09:26] Ninna (she/her): ah, we're all talking about people we love. Loving others is really important. Not only in partnerships, whatever they are in terms of sexual partnerships or loving partnerships, but also friendships. And I always tell people, I don't know if it's because I'm kind of Latin in a lot of ways.

I mean, I don't look Latin, but I was born in Chile and I lived in Mexico and we touch more than we do in the UK. And we also say, I love you much more than we do in the UK. So I always tell my friends I love you. that love is also really important for me.

[00:09:58] Catherine: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely love makes the world go round.

[00:10:03] Ninna (she/her): You were telling us about this first character that you saw represented as a fat person. That wasn't

[00:10:09] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:09] Ninna (she/her): the joke of the movie or of the show,

[00:10:11] Catherine: Some of it's not aged too well. But I guess you could say that for any show from the nineties and the two thousands.

[00:10:15] Ninna (she/her): Absolutely. I mean not only about shows, I'm really glad the internet didn't exist in the same way that it does now.

[00:10:21] Catherine: Hmm.

[00:10:22] Ninna (she/her): Any other kind of positive representations that you can think of?

Gaming and Body Diversity

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[00:10:24] Catherine: Uh, good question. In gaming, I like that in some games where you can create a character, it isn't just the stereotypical skinny, strong character, but now you can do all kinds of body types. Like I got the Sims four not too long ago, and I like how you adjust the size and proportion of the Sim that you're playing, and they do have fat people there, and it's not something that affects the gameplay at all. It's just this is their aesthetic.

[00:10:50] Ninna (she/her): We used to have an Xbox 360 with the camera, the Kinnect,

[00:10:53] Catherine: Oh, nice.

[00:10:54] Ninna (she/her): and that was lovely 'cause then we could move and play.

So it was very easy to play with. But

[00:10:59] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:59] Ninna (she/her): I do remember even then when my children were much younger, so this must have been 15 years ago, I could set my avatar to be of different sizes too, so it was never really fat, but there were characters who were fatter. So I got representation there too.

[00:11:15] Catherine: Yeah. Well, I guess now in some games you just get more of a variety of body types. Like when you play Stardew Valley, for example, the villagers are all kinds of body heights and shapes and sizes. And it's never commented on. It's just part of how the author decided to create them.

I dunno if that's really positive representation or just a lack of negative representation.

[00:11:34] Ninna (she/her): But at least that's there. 'cause I think there's the variety. 'cause

[00:11:37] Catherine: Hmm.

[00:11:37] Ninna (she/her): still on TV or generally the movies, particularly American movies . When fat bodies are portrayed, they're portrayed through fat suits, which is not great in my perspective.

[00:11:49] Catherine: No, I.

[00:11:49] Ninna (she/her): I think it's very cringy and it's always, or, or, or not always, but many times used as a way to either judge a character because of their body or to laugh at the character because of their body.

[00:12:02] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:03] Ninna (she/her): So I was watching Scoop recently.

[00:12:06] Catherine: Oh yeah.

[00:12:07] Ninna (she/her): it's a movie, a Netflix movie. We reviewed it for another podcast. It's a Netflix movie about the interview with Prince Andrew after the Epstein scandal. Good movie. I really enjoyed it. The actor who played Prince Andrew was brilliant and he was wearing prosthetics,

[00:12:23] Catherine: Okay.

[00:12:24] Ninna (she/her): which didn't really bother me much because he was trying to portray a specific person.

But then there's one scene in particular, a completely unrequired scene, when they show him in the bathroom and they show him full body. As a slightly bigger, I mean, I don't think he's ever very fat, bigger older man and, and

[00:12:44] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:45] Ninna (she/her): used to show how decadent he is, but like, had

[00:12:50] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:50] Ninna (she/her): been strong and muscly, would that make him less decadent if he really allegedly was involved in pedophile ? It'd be as bad. Why is that the way it was portrayed? I don't get it.

[00:13:04] Catherine: Yeah. Why do they focus on the body?

[00:13:06] Ninna (she/her): I don't know if you have a view on on the fat suit stuff, but I think it's a really complicated factor and I don't like it.

[00:13:13] Catherine: Yeah. Have you seen the film Shallow Hal?

[00:13:15] Ninna (she/her): Oh, horror. Yes.

[00:13:16] Catherine: Yeah, you can definitely see the fat suit in that one.

[00:13:18] Ninna (she/her): Yeah.

[00:13:19] Catherine: I think for its time it wasn't that bad in terms of going for the fat blindness angle rather than fat negativity as such, but I still don't think it was done that well, at least by today's standards .

[00:13:31] Ninna (she/her): I mean, I think they were trying to not be negative about it, but they didn't get it at all. There's still all the fat

[00:13:38] Catherine: No.

[00:13:39] Ninna (she/her): bad jokes about he could only fall in love with her because he saw her thin.

[00:13:45] Catherine: I think for its time it's better than what was there before, but still, like you say, it missed a mark on that. It wasn't. I love you because I'm not seeing your fatness as a factor. It's, I love you because I'm literally not seeing your fatness.

[00:14:00] Ninna (she/her): And also you see it about not seeing your fatness or even not seeing your fatness as a factor,

[00:14:06] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:07] Ninna (she/her): because we see the fatness anyway, don't we? Like we cannot stop seeing, and I think by not naming it and making it disappear,

[00:14:16] Catherine: Yeah, exactly like we were talking about. It's one of the first things people see when they notice us.

[00:14:21] Ninna (she/her): Exactly. Or if I say, you know, oh, I'm fat, and people are, oh, don't call yourself that. And I'm like, what have I done wrong? You know I'm fat.

[00:14:29] Catherine: Exactly.

[00:14:29] Ninna (she/her): I'm like,

[00:14:30] Catherine: It is a physical trait. You're not putting a value judgment on it. I'm not putting a value judgment on my dark hair or my dark eyes, or maybe more topical, I'm not putting a value on the color of my skin. But that's like saying you're being colorblind and calling that inclusive.

Uh, no. You're just completely ignoring some of the challenges that can result from that.

[00:14:45] Ninna (she/her): Exactly.

[00:14:46] Catherine: Because there is a perception of skin color, neurodiversity, fatness. They're not things that we have to ignore and pretend that they don't exist. It's that, okay, these are things that are part of what makes a person a person.

[00:14:58] Ninna (she/her): Yeah, I agree on that.

Challenging Stereotypes and Embracing Differences

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[00:15:00] Ninna (she/her): And we can only challenge stereotypes, our own and others', if we recognise

[00:15:05] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:06] Ninna (she/her): that they exist and that there are differences. I think.

[00:15:09] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:09] Ninna (she/her): So it´s not I don't accept you because you're thin or you're fat, but I see you I accept you, and I love you.

[00:15:18] Catherine: Yeah. Oh, actually more positive representation. In Encanto, they have all kinds of body sizes, body colors, different personalities, and one of the things I love is during the "We don't talk about Bruno" song, how one of the fat uncles is dancing with one of the skinny aunts, and they're just looking at each other with so much love.

[00:15:36] Ninna (she/her): I'd forgotten that movie. But that's a lovely movie actually. And I really, really, really like the sister that's strong all the time, but she's big and strong and then she's not

[00:15:44] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:45] Ninna (she/her): wanna be strong all the time. And that

[00:15:47] Catherine: This actually comes up a lot in my therapy sessions. I'm like, okay. So you're like Luisa, right? Yes, exactly. Okay, perfect. Now I understand.

[00:15:54] Ninna (she/her): yeah, Luisa is a good character. I mean, I

[00:15:57] Catherine: Oh, she's fantastic. Just that weight of carrying everything for so long, which I think affects so many Latina firstborn daughters at least.

[00:16:05] Ninna (she/her): Why do you say this about Latinas?

[00:16:09] Catherine: Hey, I'm Latina firstborn daughter.

[00:16:11] Ninna (she/her): And we

[00:16:12] Catherine: I can say that.

[00:16:13] Ninna (she/her): how, uh, Latina moms or Latina families of this specific approach to tough love.

[00:16:19] Catherine: Yeah. I love my mother. She loves me very much. We just don't agree on the best way of communicating that sometimes. If you're listening, hi Mom.

[00:16:29] Ninna (she/her): Yeah, no, my, my mom was lovely and she was actually always very supportive and the

[00:16:35] Catherine: Hmm

[00:16:35] Ninna (she/her): thing was the fact that, not just her but most people in my family, thought that the way to help me was to convince me to be different, which...

[00:16:46] Catherine: mm-hmm.

[00:16:46] Ninna (she/her): I see why they were doing that. And I think particularly when we grew up, not only body, which is still really important, but any kind of difference wasn't considered a positive thing.

[00:16:57] Catherine: Mm.

[00:16:58] Ninna (she/her): I also remember as I was very academicy growing up.

[00:17:01] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:02] Ninna (she/her): I've always been a proper nerd, hence also these podcasts where I look at evidence and what does the literature say and all of that. I remember, when I was in secondary school, I always got prizes in school for being like the best in my class

[00:17:15] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:16] Ninna (she/her): you know, and my mom was always proud of it, but I think she was a bit mortified that I would always get the prizes.

[00:17:23] Catherine: Oh really?

[00:17:23] Ninna (she/her): Oh yeah. 'cause my family also didn't really like the fact that I love to be the center of attention, " everyone's putting too much attention in you". And I wonder if that linked with the fact that I wasn't thin, so the attention wasn't placed on me as the way that it was expected. So had I been a thin model, that would've been okay, I suppose. But I mean, I don't know if they saw it that way, but that's the way I interpret it, if that makes sense.

[00:17:47] Catherine: Huh, interesting. I kind of got the opposite of, you can be the brains or you can be the beauty almost. It was never explicitly said, but that's kind of how I felt at the time and I was quite high performing at school, so, okay, I've got that going for me.

[00:17:59] Ninna (she/her): Yeah, I mean I had that too and my sister was the beauty and I was the brains, which is

[00:18:03] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:03] Ninna (she/her): helpful for either of us. 'cause she's also intelligent and she's also like, she's not academic, but that doesn't make her not intelligent and we're both beautiful in different ways

[00:18:14] Catherine: and I was gonna say, you're a beautiful person.

[00:18:17] Ninna (she/her): And also it doesn't matter if I'm beautiful or not because that's the other thing that I struggle with a lot with this body positive movement.

[00:18:23] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:24] Ninna (she/her): 'cause there's an expectation that, okay, fine, we can be fat or we can be whatever. As long as we're pretty, as long as we're dressing in a specific way. I'm like, no. It doesn't matter if I'm ugly according to society. 'cause again, is beauty in the eye of the beholder? Leaving that aside. But I don't have to perform or be anything for anyone else.

[00:18:46] Catherine: No, not at all.

[00:18:47] Ninna (she/her): And, and then I worry about people who, for example, I've read around stories and I'd love to hear from people from these perspectives, but people who might have, scarring in their faces, which again, are portrayed in the media and in particularly in children's movies, it's always the bad guy, like the Lion King... Scar bad,

[00:19:05] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:06] Ninna (she/her): um,

[00:19:07] Catherine: Well, the witches with limb difference,

[00:19:09] Ninna (she/her): Exactly.

[00:19:10] Catherine: And I guess one positive thing is that with the new film, there was at least a discussion about that afterwards.

I remember reading afterwards that there was a discussion of, should we be still continuing this idea of, oh, you don't have fingers, or what was it? You have claws instead of fingers. I think it was, and children who had this kind of limb difference were getting teased for it. And I just remember there was this discussion going on afterwards and the main actor apologized for it. And I thought, okay, this is good that we're talking about this... this is maybe something that needs changing.

[00:19:40] Ninna (she/her): So I haven't seen much talk about the scarring issues or

[00:19:44] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:46] Ninna (she/her): other kind of physical differences. We're talking about fatness, 'cause that's what we both share

[00:19:51] Catherine: Yeah.

[00:19:52] Ninna (she/her): and that's what the podcast's called. But also it's about other ways of representation or lack of representation thereafter.

[00:19:57] Catherine: Oh yeah, absolutely. I think it's getting better though. In Derry Girls in one of the last episodes, one of the actors they bring in just for that episode is a small person and it's not part of their character. It doesn't affect it at all. But I think it's good that we're getting more diverse actors in.

[00:20:14] Ninna (she/her): Absolutely. I'm doing different roles too.

[00:20:16] Catherine: Yeah, with neurodiversityit hasn't quite hit the mark yet, but I wanna think it's getting better.

[00:20:22] Ninna (she/her): Yeah. Actually the only thing I can think of, like a neurodiverse representation, which again, I haven't watched in many, many years, so it might be completely off, and I think that's what a lot of people have in their heads is Forrest Gump. From then on where?

[00:20:38] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:39] Ninna (she/her): how?

Sheldon from Big Bang Theory and Neurodiversity

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[00:20:39] Catherine: The example I mainly hear is Sheldon from Big Bang Theory.

[00:20:42] Ninna (she/her): fair? Yeah. So.

[00:20:44] Catherine: Which also not a great look because he is quite arrogant.

[00:20:48] Ninna (she/her): And it's a spectrum. There's different... and also there's different kinds of neurodiversity as well.

[00:20:52] Catherine: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Autism in Media and Personal Experiences

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[00:20:53] Catherine: I remember reading that Daryl Hannah, who was in a lot of films in the eighties is autistic, and I thought, huh, I wouldn't have been able to tell by looking at her. But I guess that's because the films didn't have that as her character trait. Maybe if they had then it would've been a lot more pronounced.

[00:21:06] Ninna (she/her): Maybe

[00:21:07] Catherine: But that's the point. Like you say Spectrum.

[00:21:08] Ninna (she/her): and yeah, and also because I mean, actors are acting, aren't they? I suppose they're not being themselves and with neurodiversity, it's not something you see straight in. You need to know someone to be able to start seeing those traits.

[00:21:22] Catherine: Yeah. What is it? If you meet one person with autism, you meet one person with autism.

[00:21:26] Ninna (she/her): Exactly.

That again from my two children. So as I think I've told you, and I've mentioned in the podcast, they have given me permission to say this, so both of my sons are autistic and they're completely different. The only thing that I can pinpoint that maybe is the same is that they didn't have relational play when they were young, but from then on it's very different. The ways that it presents from both of them and, and, and, and that's totally okay. And that's the way it is.

Anime and Neurodiverse Characters

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[00:21:51] Catherine: Well, actually, I'm thinking in a lot of Japanese anime, you have the strange character who's always looking, I'm putting strange in quote marks, who's always kind of in their own world and sees things in a different way. But what most of the anime do, they don't label it as autism or neurodiversity. They just go, okay, that's just how this character is and they just carry on with the rest of the show. Like I'm thinking like Azumanga Daioh, for example, has the character Osaka, who's very much in her own world, very lovely, and her friends just go, okay, it's just Osaka being Osaka. All right. Story continues.

[00:22:21] Ninna (she/her): Yeah,

[00:22:22] Catherine: Fundamental part of the friend group.

Geek Culture and Personal Interests

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[00:22:23] Ninna (she/her): I presume you like anime then as well.

[00:22:25] Catherine: Yeah. I'd consider myself a big anime fan. Yep. Really Into anime, Disney, gaming, you name it. Geeky. I've probably watched it or done it.

[00:22:33] Ninna (she/her): I can't say anything. I mean, I used to role play at uni like whole nights. I used to watch a lot of old style anime and I haven't seen for a really long time. One of the things that really bothers me is the way bodies are portrayed in some of these.

[00:22:48] Catherine: Oh, yep.

[00:22:49] Ninna (she/her): I really like fantasy, so dragons and fantasy books. That's kind of my thing. I've read The Lord The Rings like 15 times.

[00:22:58] Catherine: Awesome.

[00:22:59] Ninna (she/her): It's repetitive, yeah.

[00:23:01] Catherine: Hey, I think that's awesome. If you love something, why not do it over and over?

[00:23:04] Ninna (she/her): Yeah. It's like my safe place. It's so nice.

The Hero's Journey in Stories

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[00:23:17] Ninna (she/her): I mean, it's not, but I think it's because the characters, again, when we think of representation, the characters going through all of these hard times in life, and a lot of the fantasy coming of age stories have the same path, the hero path. So

[00:23:23] Catherine: Yeah.

[00:23:23] Ninna (she/her): just a person who then goes in this path and ends up discovering that they have something to do and contribute. And sometimes they have important things themself, but sometimes they're just a normal person who has to achieve something.

[00:23:36] Catherine: Yeah, exactly. That's the point of the hero's journey. Usually it's just somebody who doesn't particularly want to go on an adventure but has to do so anyway.

Bluey and Life Lessons

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[00:23:42] Catherine: There's a really good Bluey episode that sums up the hero's journey in about five minutes with the child characters actually.

[00:23:47] Ninna (she/her): how does that one work?

[00:23:48] Catherine: The framing device is that the mum is talking to 6-year-old Bluey about quests and Bluey ask, oh, what's a quest? And her mum's narrating what the hero's journey looks like, while at the same time her little 4-year-old is going with her dad to pick up some curry from a friend's house, and it turns into the curry quest, where halfway through she learns that her dad is going to go away for a few weeks and how she works through that. It does a really cute framing device, I think, because you have the mum explaining what it is, but then you also see how it's represented in this 4-year-old going on her own little quest, even though it's just going to pick up curry from a friend's house.

Really great show, love it.

[00:24:21] Ninna (she/her): How do these representations or the ways in which stories can help us navigate life as well. So how can you use them to support others or support yourself in this journey?

[00:24:34] Catherine: So much. I mean, first we're seeing ourselves there. We're explaining concepts that we're working through in ourselves or that we see in the world around us. I mean, I don't have kids and I love watching Blue 'cause I think, oh, I'm getting parenting tips from this. But also I'm identifying with some of the storylines.

It covers lots of different things from a child friendly angle, but also from a more adult lens. For example, it talks about illness. There's one about having a parent who is ill. Relationships, infertility, separation anxiety, all of these that as a child probably watching, wouldn't pick up on that, but as an adult. I'm thinking, whoa, this is quite deep actually.

[00:25:07] Ninna (she/her): But then the child is supposedly still picking up, not on the theme, but they're picking up on the learning from it.

[00:25:14] Catherine: Oh yeah. I mean, most of the series itself is just the girls playing games with their parents.

[00:25:18] Ninna (she/her): Yeah.

[00:25:19] Catherine: a friend who has a 3-year-old who likes watching it just because he likes to see the bits where they're playing games in the pool. Okay. Fair enough. You do, you kid.

[00:25:25] Ninna (she/her): Yeah. But then what I mean is that we learn vicariously too. When I'm thinking of childhood and the ways in which we all learn. It's part of seeing others and with having these programmes it allows us to experience those emotions and those situations before they happen.

[00:25:43] Catherine: Yeah, exactly. And I think particularly for Neurodiverse, people who may not always have the social scripts of what to say in a social situation, it can help to see a similar situation played out and go, oh, okay. That's how that person responded and this was the result.

Therapeutic Approaches to Neurodiversity

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[00:25:55] Ninna (she/her): You clearly have a lot of knowledge in terms of neurodiversity and it's something you're passionate about. I suppose it's something you work with your clients, and I've seen your videos where you talk about a specific approach that you developed. Can you explain a bit about your approach and what do you do?

[00:26:12] Catherine: I work with people who are facing something like anxiety or depression, but I try to do it from a person first perspective. So it's not, okay, I'm seeing just your symptoms. Let's clear those. It's okay, but who are you as a person and how can we get you to where you want to be, where you feel confident in yourself.

And part of why I love working with Neurodiverse people is that there's such still a stigma of you have to hide those parts of you. You have to mask these parts of you. That's not acceptable. You need to act a certain way or say certain things to fit in. And what I like to do in therapy is say, okay, here's a space where you can be as you are. You wanted to talk about a subject for 30 minutes. Perfect. More than happy to do that. You wanted to tell me about a struggle you had, but through the lens of your favourite characters. Amazing. Let's do that. You want to talk about where you want to be in life, what's important to you? Fantastic. Love that.

Let's work on what the obstacles are that are stopping, or rather making it difficult for you to be your full self. A lot of times the world doesn't allow that yet.

[00:27:10] Ninna (she/her): When I've seen your videos, you also talk about with many approaches where the approach is, okay, stop the overthinking,

[00:27:16] Catherine: mm

[00:27:17] Ninna (she/her): manage your thoughts. It doesn't work for everyone..

[00:27:21] Catherine: Exactly. Like stop overthinking. Okay. That didn't work. I'm going to stop feeling warm right now. I can't exactly turn the sun off.

[00:27:30] Ninna (she/her): Yeah.

[00:27:30] Catherine: Like, just don't think about that. Okay, fine. Then don't think about a cat in a red hat is what I usually tell my people.

[00:27:36] Ninna (she/her): And that's what your mind takes you to directly, doesn't it?

[00:27:40] Catherine: Well, I imagine you're thinking of this cat.

[00:27:42] Ninna (she/her): I'm thinking of, I can't visualize it 'cause I cannot visualize anything in the head.

[00:27:47] Catherine: Fair enough, but you're probably still thinking about what I said, right?

[00:27:49] Ninna (she/her): Absolutely. And it's still there

[00:27:50] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Mindfulness and Thought Management

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[00:27:51] Ninna (she/her): and learned mindfulness meditation that works for me, but it's not about not having thoughts. It's about having the thought and letting it go. Just not getting stuck with it.

[00:28:00] Catherine: Yeah.

[00:28:01] Ninna (she/her): Which is very different to what I would have heard before which is like, put your mind blank. I'm like, that's not going to happen.

[00:28:07] Catherine: No. Or arguing with your thoughts of is it true, is it not true? Well, because a lot of the people I've worked with who have autism for example, and have tried more traditional approaches, have heard, oh, well maybe it's not true that people don't like you and you are just imagining or projecting that. But a lot of the time you, people with autism have had experience of someone saying. No, you're being weird. So is it true that someone doesn't like them? Could perfectly be. And if somebody says, nah, that's not true, then that's just invalidating. But like you say, more modern approaches and the one I love to use is more about, okay, maybe you can think that is it true or untrue? Doesn't matter. What matters is, is this actually helping you right now in its current form?

[00:28:50] Ninna (she/her): That's a really good point. And also with some areas it's also complicated because with this world we're living in where people are going out about, oh, there's no truth, and I know that's not what you mean, but in terms of judging ourselves, I'm completely there. Do I believe this to be true or not? Is this something that's important to me? With feedback or with comments from others, I do take them personally. However, it's not helpful to do that.

[00:29:14] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:14] Ninna (she/her): And it's so much better when I am able to go, okay, they're just reflecting them, their thoughts, their views, and I can then pick that comment, pick that feedback and say, okay, what do I think from this? Does it make sense to me? Can I learn from that feedback? Or I just let it go because it's either not important to me or it's not something I want to change. 'cause we don't have to change to fit the world.

[00:29:39] Catherine: Exactly.

Body Image and Self-Acceptance

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[00:29:47] Catherine: I mean, coming back to body size, like you were saying earlier. If I have the thought, I am fat therefore, whatever value judgment I've heard there, is it true or untrue? Well, I've got plenty of evidence to say it's true because people have told me comments in the past, but is it helpful or unhelpful?

Well, it's not helping me. It's making me feel bad. So let's reframe and do some things a different way.

[00:30:00] Ninna (she/her): Exactly.

[00:30:00] Catherine: I'm not going to deny I'm fat, because I am, but let's think about it in a more helpful way or, all right, this thought it's not very important. I'm going to give my attention to ones that are.

[00:30:09] Ninna (she/her): Yeah, and like in terms of fatness, for example, to me it's like, okay, it's probably true that less people would fancy me than if I was thin. Potentially it's true.

[00:30:17] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:18] Ninna (she/her): But there'll still be some people who fancy me. That's enough for me. I just need one person.

[00:30:22] Catherine: Yeah.

[00:30:22] Ninna (she/her): That's all I want. I don't need everyone to think I'm gorgeous.

That's like, who cares?

[00:30:28] Catherine: Yeah, exactly. My husband thinks I'm hot. No one else really needs to.

[00:30:32] Ninna (she/her): Exactly, and it's enough. And it be that for other people, one person's not enough and they wanna be on a trio, or they wanna have an open relationship, and that's okay as well.

[00:30:40] Catherine: Fair enough.

[00:30:41] Ninna (she/her): I'm making those conscious decisions of what is right for me at this stage of my life, rather than what I think the world wants from me, if that makes sense.

[00:30:54] Catherine: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Weight Loss and Coaching Experiences

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[00:30:56] Catherine: When I started my fitness and body coaching, one of the first things that I was asked was, why do you want to do this? Okay, you want to lose weight? Tell me why. Exactly. And that really made me think about it of, okay, is it because people want me to, or is it because I want to? And here are the reasons why I want to.

A lot of it has honestly just been mindset change rather than fad diets or anything like that. And I think that's helped me a lot more than anything.

[00:31:19] Ninna (she/her): Can you tell us about that kind of coaching and what it means?

[00:31:23] Catherine: Sure. So, I've had for a long time my goal to lose weight and I've tried all kinds of healthy, unhealthy things for that, like restrictive diets, tried keto, paleo, intermittent fasting. But what's really helped for me is having a coach who holds me accountable, but not in a blaming way. Because when I first started, I went to my local health center and they said, oh, you've not lost a kilo in a week, you're not doing enough. Not really helpful, but the one I'm working with now says, okay, what went well this week? What didn't go well this week? I'm not gonna tell you what's good and not good. You tell me how you're feeling. And I find that a more helpful approach in that I can say, okay, well I didn't lose that much weight this week.

And he says, okay, and are you happy with the habits you made? Are you unhappy with the habits you made? And I think that's more important than necessarily having a fixed number goal.

[00:32:12] Ninna (she/her): that's what comes across in some of the tools of the health and every weight approaches where it's about habits and health behaviours rather than weight. I am aware that health at every size,

[00:32:25] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:25] Ninna (she/her): everyone having access to healthcare, whatever our size. It's a different thing than about the behaviors. But that's there too. Now, the thing I worry about with anyone who's trying to lose weight intentionally, based on the evidence there is, is that I worry that every time we've tried to intentionally lose weight, in my experience, and what I've seen in the literature is that what happens is that we do, because that's the first reaction. But then after a while, we end up putting more weight on than we lost, or, I hate the word losing weight as well, because in my experience it's never been, oh, I lost the weight. I just put it somewhere like I put my keys and I lose them every day.

[00:33:05] Catherine: It's

[00:33:05] Ninna (she/her): been a huge effort to

[00:33:07] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:08] Ninna (she/her): be smaller. I've given up completely on that

[00:33:11] Catherine: Okay.

[00:33:11] Ninna (she/her): long time now.

[00:33:12] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:12] Ninna (she/her): And I'm not against potentially, if I ever become smaller because of life and something happens. I'm not against that happening, but I'm not searching for it either.

[00:33:22] Catherine: Fair enough. You shouldn't have to.

[00:33:23] Ninna (she/her): And kinda what I worry about anyone who's trying to consciously do it is that I'm like, will it really last?

And I hope that it does for those who really want it in their lives. Also that people who don't want it in their lives, that's okay. And I worry because the evidence shows that most of us, when we've done it, we end up putting it back on and being bigger as well, which is not great.

[00:33:44] Catherine: And that's definitely what I've found with diets in the past. What I like about the person I'm working with now, it's more about sustainability than anything. It's not a, okay, you need to lose a kilo by the end of the month. It's okay. See how things go this month. See how you're feeling. What habits are you happy with? What habits are you are unhappy with? How can we change the ones you're unhappy with so that you're aligned with the goals that you have for yourself rather than the goals that other people have of you.

[00:34:06] Ninna (she/her): Yeah, and I think that's super important. 'cause again, we have body autonomy so as long as it's our own decisions about our body, whatever those are, and that's about

[00:34:14] Catherine: Hmm.

[00:34:14] Ninna (she/her): having operations of different kinds. I would never, ever, ever have bariatric surgery or have ozempic. I don't wanna judge other people who do them. So it's completely up to them. But then also about other things like to exercise or not, or autonomy to

[00:34:31] Catherine: Hmm.

[00:34:32] Ninna (she/her): Choose if have sex or not, or whatever it is.

[00:34:35] Catherine: Yeah, it's very much your body, your choice for everything.

[00:34:38] Ninna (she/her): exactly, because it's our own bodies, isn't it?

[00:34:40] Catherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:41] Ninna (she/her): And I think society in many ways, and particularly when it comes to weight, where we're really not autonomous. We're being told what we need to do, and we are being coerced into being something that for some of us might not be what we want to be. For some of us, it might not be we can be. And that's the bit that I'm really against. So it's the coertion of diet culture,

[00:35:05] Catherine: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

I remember recently I was talking to my parents about the coach I'm with now, and my dad said, well, you haven't lost much weight, so clearly it's not really working very well. And I said, well, now I don't hate myself if I go for a second serving of food. So I would say actually it's helped a lot.

[00:35:21] Ninna (she/her): That's amazing, isn't it? Because It's that relationship with food too. A lot of nutritionists nowadays that are focusing on your relationship with food.

And the fact that I went through a period of life, I don't know if you've had this experience too, but where I would only eat caloric things hidden

[00:35:39] Catherine: Yeah.

[00:35:39] Ninna (she/her): Having a burger in front of others was something I wouldn't do, but it didn't mean that I didn't have a burger or I didn't eat a chocolate. I still did it, but I hid that part of me.

[00:35:49] Catherine: Yep.

[00:35:50] Ninna (she/her): That was really harmful. Well, now I can go out with anyone, even if they're not eating and I wanna eat and I eat it and I enjoy the situation. While before I was feeling judged, 'cause how can a fat person eat a burger? You know?

[00:36:04] Catherine: Yeah, I've definitely been there. The other day I went out with a friend and I hadn't eaten dinner yet, and she had, and I said, oh, do you mind if I eat something? And she said, no, no, go for it. And I thought, actually, I don't feel judged by you. I'm more just worried about are you missing out on this?

[00:36:16] Ninna (she/her): Yeah,

[00:36:17] Catherine: And that in itself was a huge, oh my, my mindset's changed quite a lot.

[00:36:20] Ninna (she/her): That's very positive.

[00:36:21] Catherine: Yeah. I mean, shout out to my coach, Jordan Acklin of Phoenix Performance Coaching. Great guy.

[00:36:28] Ninna (she/her): Brilliant.

Final Thoughts and Key Messages

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[00:36:29] Ninna (she/her): The key themes we've been talking about are representation and how,

[00:36:33] Catherine: Hmm.

[00:36:33] Ninna (she/her): popular culture can help in development, and also your own experiences as a fat psychologist. What would be your key messages to listeners? What would you like them to hear?

[00:36:47] Catherine: My key message would be your body is a part of who you are, but part of that involves celebrating it for what it is.

[00:36:52] Ninna (she/her): That's really good, part of my celebrating my body is being able to show myself as I am at any point at my current size and enjoy it and do what my body can do rather than what I would expect everybody to do. 'cause I don't think there's such a thing.

[00:37:10] Catherine: Yeah. I had a session recently with somebody where we were talking about body image, and I showed her my wedding photo where I am a very large person in that photo and she said, oh my gosh, you're absolutely beautiful. And I said, exactly. That's the point. When I look at that, I don't think, oh, that's a fat person, it's spilling out of her, she doesn't look very good. I'm looking at that, i'm thinking I got to marry the person who I love most in the world. And all my friends and family were there, and that was amazing. And it looked beautiful at the same time. So win-win.

[00:37:37] Ninna (she/her): I'm not married anymore, didn't last very long. It lasted like four years. But still my wedding day is one of my happiest memories. I was so happy and I was feeling loved and I was feeling beautiful. Still such a beautiful memory.

[00:37:55] Catherine: Oh, that's so nice. Yeah. I went for an unconventional wedding dress, but someone said to me after, yeah, but when do you ever do anything conventionally?

Yeah, I'll show you a picture later. It looks great.

[00:38:09] Ninna (she/her): Yeah. I'd love to see it. Definitely.

Where can people find you?

[00:38:13] Catherine: So you can find me on Instagram at Geek Mental Wellbeing or on geekmentalwellbeing.com. I'm taking new clients. We'd love to work with you.

[00:38:21] Ninna (she/her): Brilliant. So I can see that I've taken the ownership of fat and you've taken the ownership of Geek. I like this. That's brilliant.

[00:38:31] Catherine: Geek is a part of me, so Why not?

[00:38:33] Ninna (she/her): That's the point that also reminds me that all of us have so many parts of us, and we could pick any of those descriptors when we define ourselves, and picking one specifically for a specific reason doesn't mean that we don't have all those others as well, we're at the same time fat and brilliant and lazy and active and... because at different times in our lives, different times in the day we're in different places as well. Sometimes those descriptors are helpful and sometimes they're definitely not. And I agree completely with you. Let's pick the ones that are helpful for us.

[00:39:14] Catherine: Exactly. If fat is the first thing you notice about me, and then after talking a while, you come away thinking, wow, that person's extremely geeky, then amazing. I'm happy with that.

[00:39:24] Ninna (she/her): Well, I love geeky. I work at a university. I think we're all geeky. It's where I belong.

[00:39:30] Catherine: Nice.

[00:39:31] Ninna (she/her): Thank you so much.

[00:39:32] Catherine: Thanks so much, Ninna. It's been fun.

[00:39:34] Ninna (she/her): I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Catherine. I loved it. If you like the Fat Psychologist Podcast, please follow, like, and rate. That's really important for me to keep growing. You can find me on social media as well, on Instagram, Threads and BlueSky and Facebook and on my website, thefatpsychologist.com. I am actively looking for sponsors and you can also buy me a coffee.

Get in touch if you have questions. If there's anything that you would like me to cover or if you'd like to come to the podcast and be a guest, bye-bye.

Episode produced, edited and presented by Ninna Makrinov.